[chris.stone]

Is it safe to say that civilization cannot exist without agriculture and that the agricultural revolution is what created civilizations?

[chris.stone]

I’m just thinking that agriculture is probably the worst mistake mankind has ever made. Instead of warring tribes, agriculture has brought us warring states.

[Jason Jewell]

Since civilization involves cities, and cities can’t really exist without agriculture, you could say that civilization can’t exist without agriculture.

Agriculture may have made war more destructive, but it has certainly brought many benefits as well.

[chris.stone]

Thanks Dr. J. I find this topic of early civilization fascinating. I’m now getting a clear picture of when civilizations arose in the time-line.

According to this[1], agriculture in Egypt started about 8000BC and the primary crop was wheat which today we know to be toxic[2]. It seems odd that people say Egypt started about 3000BC, I doubt it would take five millenia to start a civilization.

I have heard that the Hebrew text which says Adam and Eve lived around 6000BC is why people say that Egypt starts at 3000BC. So I’m a little sceptical of the dates given.

Anyway, thanks again for the responses.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture
[2] http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/sisson9.1.1.html

[Jason Jewell]

Most modern scholars’ dating of the beginning of Egypt has nothing to do with the Hebrew text. They try to date from when they think certain astronomical events occurred that the Egyptians recorded. Everyone agrees that there was a society of some kind in Egypt before 3000 B.C. The question is when does it qualify as a civilization, and that is normally dated from the union of Lower and Upper Egypt by Menes.

[chris.stone]

Do we know much about how Menes was able to unite the two parts of Egypt?

I also found some other interesting things on Wikipedia, namely that Menes was the inventor of “wealth” (probably through theft) and that he also invented writing. Also, the Egyptian crown is a double crown which is the Northern crown and Southern crown combined into one. He also founded the city of crocodilopolis which is a really cool name for a city.

Since Menes invented wealth, this leads me to believe that he was probably a tyrant. It also leads me to believe that he didn’t unite upper and lower Egypt peacefully. This is why I ask if we know much about the diplomacy involved. Do we know which part of Egypt Menes was from?

Also, as the inventor of writing, I’m sure we are getting Menes’ version of how things happened. 😉

[Jason Jewell]

I’m not a specialist in Egyptian history, but the narrative I”m familiar with says that Menes was the king of Upper Egypt and then conquered Lower Egypt. I don’t know what the Wikipedia article could mean specifically by calling Menes the inventor of wealth, since wealth as an economic concept includes pretty much all goods.

Sorry for the slow responses. I’ve been without internet access for almost a week.

[chris.stone]

Sorry, I think the article said he was the inventor of “luxury”, not wealth. I bet Menes was a brutal dictator/tyrant and he conquered Lower Egypt through force.

Also, I recently learned about writing in Somalia dating back to 9000BC on cave paintings. Supposedly Somalia was where the Land of Punt was located.

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